A Christian, A Rabbi And An Atheist Walk Into A.........(add your own punchline)

They actually walked into a radio studio and debated the Old Testament on Justin Brierly's Unbelievable show on Premier radio. 


The radio show came hot on the heels of the premier of The Bible tv series currently being aired on channel 5.

Rabbi Josh Levy, Christian lecturer Chris Sinkinson and an atheist you may well have heard of, Richard Dawkins were discussing the rights and wrongs of the Old Testament stories, including Abrahams near sacrifice of Isaac and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah.

Most surprising for me was that Dawkins very much encouraged the reading of the Bible - albeit as a wonderful work of literature not a historical document; a lot of his atheist contemporaries are very much against any form of Bible teaching/RE lessons within schools, yet it was at school where Richard came to the Old Testamant which as a work of literature he enjoys.  So there you have it, Richard Dawkins encourages the reading of the Bible.

If you have been watching the tv series as I have, this radio show was a helpful addition to further unpack some of the more difficult passages that Christians and non Christians alike find unpleasant, I found particularly helpful Chris' observation that in the OT times they were only just getting to know God and the sort of God he was and what he wanted for them and from them.


I can also recommend Chris' book Time Travel To The Old Testament, it is written in such an easy to understand way, that the intellect with which it is written doesn't overwhelm you and the historical and archaeological facts don't bore you, moreover it makes you want to pick up your Bible and go travelling yourself with God and his people!


Did you listen to the Unbelievable show? Are you watching The Bible? What do you think about it? I enjoyed episode 2 more, it is growing on me! I think I may buy the dvd set as I still can't stand all the ad breaks and that ridiculous sponsor puppet Buck Denver!

Cassette Recordings and iPod Downloads

I can remember when I was about 10 years old and went to church every week, there was a very old man who used to regularly tape the services using a very modern cassette recorder. Now, nearly 30 years on (I'm definately not 40 yet!) services in the church I go to and churches all over the world are recorded and available via the internet. I know, who'd have thought in the future I'd still be going to church!



As a child I went to Church every week, 3 times a Sunday with my family. This wasn't a grand Church of England church with stained glass windows, pews and carved memorials in the walls, that might have entertained my wandering mind. 

It was a purpose built, for want of a better word 'hut'. And it wasn't called a Church, it was a Gospel Hall, and we didn't go to 'church' we went to 'the meeting'. So when I refer to going to church, I'm actually talking about a small group of about 30-40 people who all met on a Sunday, at the same times and sat in the same seats to hear the same story, which to me at the time seemed pointless.

I used to look up at the tiles on the ceiling, they were polystyrene with an indented pattern and depending on how I squinted I could make the cubes jump in or out, and if I got particularly bored of that, I would count them and multiply them - I really should be a lot better at maths than I am, given the amount of 'revision' I put in on a Sunday!

But it was the regular recording of the service by Uncle Percy, (who was almost 100 at the time) that I have been thinking about a lot lately. As far as I was concerned, we were sitting through excruciating boredom first time around, why would anyone record this to listen to it again?! His stubby old man fingers, carefully waiting to press record and play simultaneously as the speaker began his message just baffled me, nowadays such recordings are a matter of course, and available for download by whoever wants them.

So nearly 30 years on, I often wonder what surprises me more, that I now regularly go to a church and very much enjoy it, or that I scour the internet looking for services I might've missed, or think I'll find interesting to download to my iPod!

Boy do I wish the internet and iPods had been invented when I was a kid, there was just no discreet way of smuggling a bright red Sony Walkman into a meeting to listen to Thin Lizzy instead of the boring speaker! And if you'd got caught there was no excuse, no quick touch of a screen and 'look, I'm not on facebook, it's my online Bible app! What did you think it would be?'

                 
                 

I'm sure Uncle Percy and the likes of that time would be overwhelmed with the resources available to us today through which to hear Gods word spoken and taught! Here are some of my favourite links:

Unbelievable Radio Show Each week this show pits a believer against a non-believer to discuss topical issues and occasionally has two believers coming from differing angles, always a good show!

Liquid Church An American Church, most sermons by Tim Lucas. Upbeat preaching but always with an excellent message!

Tim Keller is a Theologian who has done some thoughtful series on believing in God and how it makes sense to us.

Reasonable Faith Dr Willaim Lane Craig answers the apologetics questions of the time.

Thornbury Baptist Church Better plug my own Church! Paul Ferguson does most of the services but other favourites to look out for are Dave Day and David Lawrence!

I've been thinking about this because as I said, I love to look online for Bible sermons or commentaries that interest me, if I miss a service at the church I attend and it's a speaker I enjoy, I know I can go onto the website and download the talk, and almost every time I put my earphones in and slide my finger across the screen of my phone, I think of old Uncle Percy and his cassette recordings...........

Adam And Eve Or Adam And Steve?

I have listened to the latest 'it's ok to be a gay Christian' conversations with Steve Chalke, hosted both times by the fabulous Justin Brierly! Steve has also written for Christianity Magazine on his affirmation of same sex monogamous long term relationships.

One of Chalkes arguments is that we have moved on from the position in the Bible that women must be silent and not take part in church services, so we should now move on and accept that when the bible talks of relationships it refers to both gay and straight. But there are also positive accounts in the Bible of women who are prophets and teachers and highly regarded, so that doesn't really stack up with  moving on to accept homosexuality, which is always looked at negatively in the Bible.

So lets look at a subject in the Bible which similarly to homosexuality is never portrayed positively.......say 'gluttony'.  I know many many more fat Christians than gay ones, they are afforded the same rights within the church as the Christians with the perfect BMI.........


I have to say four or five years ago my views were very black and white, there was little room for movement, or even listening with an open mind in some cases. I would very much have said 'you cannot be a Christian and be gay'. I completely believe now that is entirely wrong! The only thing that prevents you from being a Christian is rejecting Christ. Some people may interpret being gay as having rejected Christ because it goes against what he taught.  

But that is not the case, Jesus never mentions homosexuality; he mentions a lot about loving each other and helping the poor and needy and not judging each other, not holding grudges, not to worry, how to pray, being wise and thoughtful, not to be greedy or jealous, not to be proud or boastful, to stay faithful in marriage..........are you keeping up? Anyone ready to throw a stone yet? John 8:7

So maybe if Jesus didn't see the need to teach specifically about it, maybe we don't need to be coming out and stamping our position on it? Of course within our churches we need to be able to hear the small percentage of people who are attracted to the same sex and counsel them accordingly - that does not mean counsel them into straightness, that means counsel them into accepting who they are and what that now means for their life, and that they are loved by God and a most precious and unique individual who is worthy of the same respect as anyone else......and that goes for fat people too! 

Believe The Virgin Birth This Christmas

Do you believe a virgin gave birth to Jesus? Or is it something that you just accept as a myth, a nice part of the cute nativity story? 

In the last month on facebook I have seen many posts and pictures making a mockery of the virgin birth, usually suggesting that it might be a good excuse for a teenage girl to give their parents today "honestly Mum, I'm still a virgin!" and of course they are right to suggest that would be ridiculous and impossible. Well done atheists.

Not only would it be ridiculous and impossible today, it would also be unnecessary. The world only needs one saviour and he has already been born!

John 1:1-2

Contemporary English Version 

In the beginning was the one who is called the Word.

The Word was with God and was truly God.

From the very beginning the Word was with God.

Jesus was with God from the beginning, so he couldn't be conceived conventionally because he already existed, but to live amongst  us as a human and experience the same things as us; birth, childhood, puberty, teenage angst, family life, love, loss etc he had to be born, but he had to remain perfect and the only way to remain perfect was to keep man out of it. (Sorry man, but I often think to myself in various situations 'this would've been perfect without a man'!)

It's true. Man could not have impregnated Mary with the son of God! God had to do it and I don't think it's too much to believe that a God who can part seas and cure people of leprosy could have a virgin give birth to his child!

Jesus Christ did exist, most historians agree with that. (Unbelievable Podacast 'Did Jesus Exist?') If he was not the son of God, he was a narcissistic megalomaniac who has somehow kept people gripped by his teachings for over 2000 years, most nutters like that last a generation and either die naturally or kill themselves along with their cult, and the following dies, but not with Jesus.

John12:23-33

Common English Version

²³ Jesus said: 

The time has come for the Son of Man to be given his glory.²⁴ I tell you for certain that a grain of wheat that falls on the ground will never be more than one grain unless it dies. But if it dies, it will produce lots of wheat. ²⁵ If you love your life, you will lose it. If you give it up in this world, you will be given eternal life. ²⁶ If you serve me, you must go with me. My servants will be with me wherever I am. If you serve me, my Father will honor you.

²⁷ Now I am deeply troubled, and I don’t know what to say. But I must not ask my Father to keep me from this time of suffering. In fact, I came into the world to suffer. ²⁸ So Father, bring glory to yourself.

A voice from heaven then said, “I have already brought glory to myself, and I will do it again!”²⁹ When the crowd heard the voice, some of them thought it was thunder. Others thought an angel had spoken to Jesus.

³⁰ Then Jesus told the crowd, “That voice spoke to help you, not me. ³¹ This world’s people are now being judged, and the ruler of this world is already being thrown out! ³² If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me.” ³³ Jesus was talking about the way he would be put to death.

Jesus knew how he was going to die and the purpose of his death, he also knew he would be resurrected and there are eyewitness accounts from people who met and spoke with Jesus after his death. All he spoke of was and is true.

Luke says at the beginning of his Gospel, he has made a careful study of all the facts concerning what God has done amongst us and written them down to tell us exactly what took place. John says near the end of his Gospel, that he wrote it so that we can know that Jesus is the son of God and put our faith in him and have eternal life through him.

You don't have to wonder whether or not you can believe this age old story of the virgin birth, you only have to read the historical Gospel accounts that were written for a time when it would be impossible to believe such a story, they gathered the facts for us, they spoke to the witnesses for us, they recorded it for us. Jesus came into the world to save us, he died for us and he is alive today in Heaven for us. 

Celebrate that fact this Christmas, believe the story of the virgin birth this Christmas.

Fear And Faith And The Atheist Prayer Experiment

I wasn't initially going to watch the 2nd part of Derren Brown's Fear And Faith series, because, I suppose, I didn't want to watch an atheist explain God away as a 'placebo'.  But curiosity got the better of me and I have now watched it.  It was in no way as offencive as I had feared it might be, in fact it was very interesting and proved again that Derren is a master manipulator of suggestion to the human mind.

The atheist he 'converted' wasn't looking for anything missing in her life, and all she described was an overwhelming emotion of love, this had been brought about, as Derren explained afterwards, by his tapping at certain points in the conversation to make a connection of all the correct emotions at the end when he left her and made his final tap.

Correctly he assimilated some faith conversions to an overwhelming emotion and hyped up activity, such as were seen in the Billy Graham meetings a few decades ago.

I was listening to the Unbelievable pod cast recently, they were reviewing their Atheist Prayer Experiment in which they had asked Atheists to pray daily for God to reveal himself to them and to report back anything which they had considered a sign or a reveal from God.

A couple of ladies had described their experience of a Rainbow they had seen during the experiment. This didn't lead them on to become full blown Christian believers in God, but they thought it was a sign to them during the time of the experiment.

The point is everyone's experience is unique to them, whether it is attributed to God or suggestion from a person or group, it is unique to you.  What we as individuals have to decide is, what we are going to do as a follow on from that experience.

On the Derren Brown programme, the atheist said she 'wished she could have known about that love sooner, why couldn't she always have felt like that?' although the trigger to that overwhelming emotion was planted by Derren, if she does want to investigate finding that feeling again further and chooses to go down the God route to do it, she may well find God for real; or she may choose to look for it elsewhere in relationships or material things.

With the atheists in the Unbelievable experiment, they are left mulling over what they understood to be a sign as a result of their prayers to ask God to reveal himself.  They can either just put it down to a phenomenon that they don't quite understand and forget about it and move on, or perhaps they can continue with their prayers for God's revelation and take their quest to find him a step further.

Derren concluded his programme with the thought "if you believe in god, it's probably because it makes you feel happy."

I think any Christian will tell you it is so much more than happiness that our belief brings us, it is forgiveness, it is eternal existence with God in Heaven, it is peace.......

Have you had an overwhelming 'Religious' experience? Or encountered God in an unexpected circumstance?

What Is Wrong With The World?

Following on from listening to the Unbelievable podcast and then Justin Brierly asking the question on the facebook page, I thought I would expand my thoughts here, after all that is what a blog is for, right?

This was my short answer:

"Definitely a lack of love. If we all truly loved the way Jesus taught us to love, there would be an immediate improvement. Actually, even if just Christians started to actually love the way Jesus taught, there would be an immediate improvement!"

This started to really challenge me, how can we expect non-believers to show the love that Jesus taught about, when a lot of people who say they are Christians can't even achieve that.

Most of the atheists go with the opinion 'Religion' is what is wrong with the world and if we weren't so hooked up on living in fear of a God that doesn't exist and imposing His rules on people, everyone would get along just fine.

I stand by love, and this is somewhere I fail big time, but I am trying all the time to love more of the difficult people I come across and remember that they are equal in God's eyes.

Romans 13:8-10 ESV
"Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

We would all agree the commandments are a good moral grounding by which to live. Well as the Bible says, if we all loved, we would fulfil those commandments and therefore the world would be without murder, theft, jealousy etc and how could that not make the world a better place?

And if you're not a believer in God or don't think what the Bible says about love is relevant to the world today, that's fine - but you can't argue with The Beatles!



Eternal Punishment or Annihilation?

As promised in my tweet the other day, I have listened to the unbelievable podcast and I will now reveal to you whether or not there is a Hell.

Actually that's slightly inaccurate, the existence of Hell wasn't in question; it was whether or not it was conscious eternal punishment, Steve Jeffery's view, or permanent annihilation of the body and soul, Chris Date's view.



Before you read on I feel I must refer you to my tag-line above; I'm not theologically trained, I just have opinions I'm happy to offer.

So this post really isn't going to be based on exegesis, it's simply going to come from the heart of the way I feel about eternity.

Matthew 25:46 ESV
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Surely Hell has to be an eternal conscious punishment? I can't say in what form the punishment will take.  I understand the reference of Hell as Gehenna to be the sacrificial fire, so I don't know if it's a big burning place in eternity or not, but essentially whatever it is, I believe it will be for eternity and it won't be pretty. 

Why would it be so imperative as Christians to be evangelical with the message of God's love? Why would God desperately want no-one to experience Hell and for us all to come to Him and accept His son died in our places so we could avoid it? Because it is eternal, there is no getting away from it.

I do not believe in the tactic of Hell-fire vs Heaven, but it's gotta be more urgent to flee Hell-fire than to flee annihilation.

Matthew 10:28 ESV
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

I'm not a Christian because I'm frightened of Hell, but I certainly don't want to go there! But annihilation holds no fear for me.  

Some people would say I know nothing anyway, so to be clueless for eternity isn't going to make much difference. Sure, we may be missing out on Heaven and maybe that is deemed to be the real punishment, but really, will that bother anyone if they are unaware of it?

I've missed hundreds of fantastic parties I knew nothing about; actually I can't really say I missed them because I didn't know anything about them, ergo, it doesn't bother me, I just get on with my life......... or not.......... in the case of the annihilation theory.

Whatever your thoughts that Hell may or may not be, I think as believing Christians, we all know that most importantly we have an eternal place in Heaven; and that is open to everyone.

Romans 10:13 ESV
"For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The Beauty Of Church Is The People, Not The Building

This weeks Unbelievable podcast featured writer Alain de Botton and James Orr asking should Atheists be more religious?

Alain has written a book 'Religion for Atheists'. He seems like a really nice reasonable bloke, who can see the virtue in things religious people have and would like atheists to have the same just without the spiritual side of things!

One thing that came up that I strongly disagree with is his statement that having a faith orientation is the same as your sexual orientation, you are either one way inclined or another and there isn't any feasible way to persuade you otherwise.  I would probably agree that you couldn't persuade a straight person to become gay or vice versa, but to say you cannot show someone the way to faith is ridiculous.  There are many Atheists who become Christians and also sadly, many Christians who turn away from their faith and become Atheists.

The main point I want to pick up on from the podcast though is that Alain seems to place a lot of weight in the role Churches/Temples play in religion.  He would like a magnificent structure to be made for Atheists to be able to admire and gather in.

The point Alain has missed (not his fault, he's not a Christian) is that the Church building is irrelevant to a faith in God, beautiful though these buildings are, the Church is made of God's people;

Matthew 18:20 ESV
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

I know some Christians obviously still meet in the traditional Churches of England, but the structure of the building is of no relevance to the religion, well, certainly not my religion! Alain seems to think we are drawn to the beauty of the structure and architecture of the building and enjoy that as one element of our religion. 

 It would make no difference to me where we met for Church, because the Church is made of the believers in Christ.

                                                The Church I attend; hardly an enviable temple, even to an Atheist!

Jesus himself dismissed the beauty of the Temple;

Mark 13:1-2

¹ As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

² “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This was one of the most beautiful buildings in Jerusalem, but it was not built to honor God, it was built for the Jews, mere people. And true to Jesus' prophecy the Temple was completely destroyed.

So if Alain de Botton would like a Church/Temple/Beautiful structure for Atheists to meet in, go for it.

But it will never have the beauty of a Church that Christians meet in, because God will not be present in it.

That Interview.......

 

The most anticipated podcast since William Lane Craig vs. The Chair

Get the podcast here. 

Had a listen last night and I hope I was open minded, because I have enjoyed Mark’s sermons and I love Justin’s show.  It was nice to be exposed to a realer side of Justin when the tables turned because obviously on his show he shows complete impartiality.

Justin asked if he could talk about more than just the book, which Mark said he was happy with, so he can’t really then complain that parts of his ministry were discussed.  Justin told Grace to be free to chip in at any time, she only responded once at Justin’s invitation.  Mark has said he found Justin to be disrespectful towards Grace, but I actually feel it was Mark who was disrespectful towards her.  My husband and I in no way have a marriage we could write a guidance book about, but if we had written a book together and were being asked about it, I would expect him to invite me into the conversation or mention my input and lead me into talking about it. Having said that I would feel I could have a say if it needed it without invitation!  So I concluded from that, Grace is either uber shy, or uber submissive suffering from ‘I will not speak until spoken to’ little woman syndrome.

Marks problem with men and make no mistake he thinks this is ALL men, not some who suffer from this, every single man is inherently lazy, sex-crazed, un-committed etc. and that is why only a macho Pastor like him can get through to them, they simply will not engage in a church that isn’t led by an action man.  He then contradicts himself though by saying that the men in Seattle are Arty types, business men, upper city men etc. So I was unsure why he was concerned with the possible congregations outside his own church, because obviously under his guidance there are no knuckle draggers in his church.

Considering the interview primarily was for an article on the book, I do think Justin didn’t give as much time to that as he could’ve, but he was almost led away from the subject of marriage by Marks attack on men, which obviously is going to lead on to further questioning.

I also think Justin could’ve been a bit more positive with his answers to Mark at the end, I know it must’ve been pretty intimidating suddenly having the shoe put on the other foot, but I assume he knows what he believes and he did come across a bit uncomfortably in his answers.

So, will I read the book? No, for me personally I think it would do more harm than good, but if anyone else wants to, go for it!

Will I listen to Pastor Mark’s sermons again? Yes, I can’t ignore the fact I have probably been blessed by them more than I have been outraged.

Will I listen to Justin’s unbelievable radio show anymore? No………….Joking I am, I love that show!!!!!